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10 months ago
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Fascinating post.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you can label people. There won't, as far as I can make out, have been a systematic plan to send a certain type of convict out. Society won't have been advanced enough then.
It will have depended on local conditions, local judges etc.
And as for the inequality and brutality?
You cannot judge that against the situation as it is today.
Inequality and brutality were a part of English life back in the 18th century so, providing they survived the journey, many may well have seen an improvement in their lot.
And if we found ourselves living in a world like that we would, no doubt, behave in a similar fashion.
OMG June what a thought, none of us know what 'we' would do if push came to shove and our kids were starving ... This was a great post and made me want to know more about what went on during the early days. It must have been horrendous at the start - they probably survived through gut courage and determination.
ReplyDeleteCheers for now Kate x.
A WRITE BLOG
ReplyDeleteMollie Gillen's research was centred on First Fleet convicts - the people sent out to do the 'spade work' for the new colony. Don't you think the English of that time would have chosen the first convicts carefully to ensure, so far as possible,a reasonable start? And that later convicts would have been more problematic? Surely Britain was sufficiently sophisticated to allow such decisions?
Convicts who survived the journey and the privations on land were ultimately better off in many many cases.
Yes KATE Australia's early days were horrific. The colonists couldn't even grow food easily in the poor soil around Sydney. They had to re-learn agricultural practices from the bottom up.
ReplyDeleteOnce they did begin to explore, the inhospitable inland was another huge challenge.
Also Kate, it's sobering to note the convict built roads and buildings which can still be seen - you wonder how people constructed them as part of gangs often with chains around their ankles.
Then there were the wars with the Aborigines - an altogether different, sad story.
Interesting post. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. There was also a time in the settlement of America when jails were emptied across Europe and those creatures found refuge and a new life here in this country.
ReplyDeleteWOW!! these are wonderful info about Australia...Thanks a lot June .....and old pictures are always interesting to watch.....we may get a small outlook of that period if fortunate...
ReplyDeleteHi again ABE LINCOLN
ReplyDeleteWould you call those people 'creatures'?
GREENER BANGALORE
ReplyDeleteYes, each peek at history only realises a tiny piece of the picture, but they're generally worth having. 'He who ignores history is destined to repeat it'
To me it appeared that the society wanted to get rid of these people because it ran short of means to get back to them to main stream of life. But I find at least some of them were in the path of guilt because they were compelled to do so. Some one stole biscuits out of hunger and he was punished without finding out the means and ways so that he may earn his food. So those trying to put labels and want to dump criminals in other country are to be lebelled as criminals. Thank you June for such anice post and an eye opener.
ReplyDeletePRADIP BISWAS
ReplyDeleteIt is an interesting story.
And the less fortunate are still being moved around the globe today.
Hi June, no the convicts were in the main ordinary folk who got in trouble for mainly minor offences. My mother is an historian and she has traced her family tree back and of course on her Dad's side there are a couple of convicts. They stole bread or something. What I dont like is that in the UK, in particular, they go on and on about our criminal past. It annoys the hell out of me. It wasnt their ancestors that had to come here and settle the country. I am GLAD that my ancestor stole that piece of bread because without him I would not be here today. Plus a little drama in your background is kind of a great talking point. We are all Gods creatures. Shame about the cruel way the indiginous Australians wee treated though.
ReplyDeleteWell written June...interesting to read. I always loved finding out the real Aussie history; it was not a nice one, thanks to the usual nonsense the British carried out. They did it in so many places, too...
ReplyDeleteHope you're well...sorry I haven't been for a while; slowly finding my feet again and wandering the web :)
xx
Hi LILLY
ReplyDeleteI come down on the side of your Mum (as I do in my post, while trying to be balanced). I minored in history in a uni degree not too long ago and my lecturers were the same, believing that most were 'ordinary folk' in trouble.
There were a lot of political convicts such as those from Ireland and, of course, we also had our murderers and highway men, although not so many on the First Fleet.
Many convicts did become most embittered by being poor and with the treatment they got in the gaols and hulks, and violent personalities resulted.
However I would nominate members of the NSW Corps (the 'Rum Corps' which comandeered rum supplies and sold them for their own benefit) as among the least moral in the place.
Let alone those who were indiscriminate in their treatment of Aborigines.
BRAJA
ReplyDeleteYes, I really enjoyed my recent Australian history units at uni. When I was at school we learned from the texts that gave the British point of view only. Kids were fed this stuff for generations and it is only in fairly recent years that we have been told some of the truths.
What a well-researched post. We had always read the Brit coloniser's account, you give us the other perspective.
ReplyDeleteThank you Sucharita - I drew on some stuff I did at uni for background.
ReplyDeletePeople in India had some similar difficulties - of being a British colony I mean ...
What becomes history is more often than not pretty sad and one sided... labeling people can be very non considerate too. Thank you very much for this post! I have quite a few Australian friends but I am ashamed to say that I do not know a whole lot about the history!
ReplyDeleteA very interesting and well researched post. It's good to re-acquaint myself with this history which I've been aware of.
ReplyDeleteHi Tulsa
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed your post about the American written Japanese constitution ...
We share an interest in history, I see ...
G'day Cath - good to have you visit again.
ReplyDeleteI do think Australian history is fascinating, especially now we're beginning to look squarely at it while remembering that he who writes history is destined to own it. Taking that into account helps to sort out truth from fiction.
June, this post was fascinating. Our education is sadly lacking in information about your country. My dad's family was said to be Irish, but a few years ago, thanks to a DNA project for which my brother volunteered, we learned that his closest DNA matches are in Australia. We have been wondering if we descended from one of the convicts taken to your country. I haven't been able to find any genealogical evidence, but new info comes to light daily, so I won't give up hope of straightening out the story to my own satisfaction. Thank you for the history lesson.
ReplyDeleteSugarCain
ReplyDeleteThere are many many people of Irish descent here, and many came as convicts. Indeed, a good percentage were political prisoners, fighting against the unjust British behaviour in their country.
I have some Irish in me, but can't find a convict (yet). It's become a bit of a status symbol to have one in your family now!
If you send me a few names together with birth and death dates I may trip across a relative or two of yours as I do my own family history ...
Do you edit books for publishing Sugar? Or are you a journalist/editor?
Hi Linda
ReplyDeleteI like your new site!
The pictures I use on 70 Plus are mainly from my Canon Powershot A610 5 megapixels. Not an expensive camera, but easy to use and I think it does a great job. Have had it for about three years with no troubles.
Hi again June. I just added this blog to my list as well. Your garden pictures are amazing. I haven't had time to read the actual posts here yet but I'll be back!
ReplyDeleteHi June, I love the old pictures and "Yes", I would probably steal if my children were hungry. I would do whatever it took to keep them safe and healthy. I do think they chose the more competent ones to make the trip and settle the land. Even today, we often punish someone for years for a menial crime and let someone off that has committed murder or worse crimes.
ReplyDeleteHi JUDY
ReplyDeleteI would have bet my boots that was your point of view on this. You're certainly a passionate mum and grandmum.
Hi Mystery Lady
ReplyDeleteYes I think my camera did a good job on those shots.
My poor garden needs a little TLC at the moment ...
Funnily enough I was just writing and thinking about this topic this week as I reviewed Kate Grenville's book The Secret River. As a transplanted Australian I visited Australia last month and revisited some historic sites and brushed up on my history from school days.
ReplyDeleteNow of course Australians are very proud to count convicts amongst their ancestors nowadays, a sort of reverse pride and the documentation is very complete so that it is easy to find out.
Of course, we used to think that someone got transported for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family. Not really a criminal but the reality was that these people were often thieves on a constant basis, as life forced them to be to survive in the horrible conditions in England at the timme. And since you could be hanged for an enormous variety of crimes we consider today petty today it was not too difficult to be sentenced to death.
Later convicts included "gentlemen" who got transported for their part in the Irish rebellions. Some later went on to have careers as Premiers in Australia and Canada.
I just notice your link on someone's blog and had to visit another seventy plus blogger.
I have no literary aspirations but just call my blog Nobody Important, writing about places I've been/go, things I've done/do, although it has evolved in the past two years.
I'll put you on my bloglines feed.
regards
jmb
Thanks for the visit JMB - we septigenarians must stick together.
ReplyDeleteJune
Interesting stuff !! I have 2 convicts on the first fleet which I have researched very well with the help of others however I have been told I have a connection with Norfolk Island, now I assume it was a convict lady , I have been trying to get a list of convicts sent to Norfolk Is. from Australia but it seems to be hard to get, do you have any suggestions as to where I could get that ? Delma McDonald in Australia
ReplyDeleteHi Delma - thanks for the comment. How about making contact with the family history convicts list aus-convicts@rootsweb.com? A lot of knowledgeable and helpful people belong and you never know what they'll come up with ...
ReplyDeleteCheers
June